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Herald 26 September 1896.
Hythe Licensing Sessions.
The annual licensing sessions for the division of Elham took place
at Hythe on Thursday last, the following Justices constituting the
Court: Mr. J. DuBoulay, Mr. J. Porter, Capt. Baldwin, Commander
Mansell R.N., and Mr. A.S. Jones.
Mr. John Bartter, grocer, butcher, and off licence holder, applied
for a full licence in respect of his premises, known as Albion
House, Cheriton Street. Mr. Goldie, solicitor, of Rochester,
appeared in support of the application. Mr. Mowll appeared for the
brewers who lease the White Lion; Mr. A.H. Gardner, of Folkestone,
appeared on behalf of the Earl of Radnor, owner of the freehold of
the White Lion; Mr. Bannon, of Romney, appeared for Mr. Baldock, the
tenant of the White Lion, and also for the Folkestone District
Licensed Victuallers' Association; Mr. Bradley, of Dover, appeared
on behalf of local Temperance Societies and other residents; the
Rev. R.E. Johnston appeared in person as Vicar of the Parish of All
Souls; and Mr. Superintendent Waghorn also opposed the application
on behalf of the police authorities.
The case opened for the applicant was that since the year 1872, when
the White Lion sufficed for the needs of that portion of Cheriton,
there had been a considerable number of new houses erected there,
the increase being upwards of 300 new houses, representing a
population of about 1,500, for whose accommodation the White Lion
was the only fully licensed house. In addition to an off licence
granted some years ago, there was the Unity public house about 1,000
yards from applicant's premises, which were situated about 80 yards
from the White Lion. The premises are well adopted for the purposes
of a fully licensed house, as there would be plenty of rooms for
visitors, and bedrooms if necessary, while there would be a large
bar 14 feet square, and a large space in front of the house where
people could find accommodation without interfering with the public
footpath. As showing that such a licence was needed by the
inhabitants, there was a memorial now submitted in favour of
granting it, signed by some 280 persons, including the Chairman and
four other members of the Parish Council.
The applicant, on being called, stated that he is a Churchwarden of
All Souls; that he carries on the trade of a butcher, and that of a
grocer; that he has a grocer's licence to sell wine, beer, and
spirits; that if he got a full licence he would give up the grocer's
licence; and that his rateable value is £48. As to the petition, he
could only speak to his brother having got the signature of Mr.
Greenstreet, the Chairman of the Parish Council.
In cross-examination by Mr. Bannon, he said that he lives next door
to the grocery shop in a different house; that he had held the
grocer's licence for about five years; that of course there was a
reasonable trade to be done there; that the demand for beer, wine
and spirits was such as to induce him to apply for a full licence;
that the trade he did was reasonably good, according to the
population, but that it was not everybody who could afford to buy
bottled beer; that his off licence trade was extended to visitors;
and as to Mr. Dunster, he believed that that gentleman signed
adversely to the applicant.
Cross-examined by Mr. Mowll, he admitted the existence in that
district of the White Lion (70 yards from applicant's house); Mr.
Quested's off licence, some distance away; the Working Men's
Institute, in which beer is supplied; the Unity, in Risborough Lane;
the Britannia, in Horn Street; the Fountain, at Seabrook; the Star,
at Newington; the Refreshment Bar at the Railway Station; and the
Railway Arms, at Shorncliffe Railway Station. He further stated, in
reply to questions, that he is the postmaster; that he sells coal;
that he is a greengrocer; that he is agent for a firm of dyers and
cleaners; that he is agent for several brewers; that he carries on
business as a glass and earthenware dealer; and that, if this full
licence was granted, he would continue to carry on all these
businesses.
In reply to Mr. Bradley, he added that he is a Universal Provider,
and would supply anything from an elephant to a pin – anything
reasonable. He made his application on account of the needs of the
people living in Cheriton.
Mr. Ernest Wilks, architect, Hythe, proved a plan of the district
which he had prepared for the occasion, and in addition to giving a
variety of statistics, spoke to the suitability of the applicant's
premises.
Richard Pilcher, builder, Cheriton, deposed that he had built
upwards of 100 houses there within the last 14 years. As a member of
the Parish Council, he was of opinion that it was necessary that
another full licence should be granted, and the applicant's house he
regarded as a good site for it.
Cross-examined by Mr. Mowll: You are a friend of Mr. Bartter's? – I
have known him all my life.
It would be a little job, would it not? (Laughter) – Oh, yes, sir.
If we had not jobs like this we should not want solicitors.
Frederick Rolfe, builder, Cheriton, gave corroborative evidence. He
said he had been frequently at the White Lion to get a glass of
beer, and had found great difficulty in getting what he required, in
consequence of the crowd of people at the bar. This was especially
the case at holiday times, or when anything special was going on at
the Camp.
Cross-examined by Mr. Mowll: You describe yourself as a builder. Are
you not a bricklayer? – A bricklayer.
Don't you work for Mr. Pilcher? – I do some work.
Don't you do the practical work of his bricklaying at so much a rod?
– Yes.
Then you and Mr. Pilcher are one and the same individual. (Laughter)
William Biscoe, one of those who had got signatures to the memorial,
said he obtained 100, and in his opinion, as a teetotaller, another
fully licensed house was required in Cheriton. Asked why, he said
that the population is increasing, and that when passing along the
street he had seen a group of people standing outside the White Lion
drinking. As far as he could tell, when passing by, the house seemed
crowded inside.
Cross-examined by Mr. Mowll: Are you known in Cheriton as a
teetotaller? – Well, I am not a strict teetotaller belonging to a
Temperance Society. (Laughter)
Don't you think it was a little ungracious for you to go round to
get signatures? – No, sir. I am not a bigoted teetotaller.
Cross-examined by Mr. Bradley: Are you a teetotaller on principle?
Do you believe in being a teetotaller? – I do.
Did you think it in accordance with your principle to get signatures
to a memorial for another licensed house? – I don't belong to any
society.
You believe in people being teetotal? – No, sir, I don't. I believe
in it for myself.
You don't think what is good for you is good for others? – I allow
everybody to please themselves. I know what is good for me.
Instead of that you want to get a licence? – I am not a teetotaller
as you are. I like a glass of whisky if I have a cold.
Rev. R.E. Johnston: It was stated that five Parish Councillors
signed the memorial. Did any of them sign at your request? – No,
sir.
Mr. Bannon: I should like to ask to what degree you are a
teetotaller? – I have never taken any beer, except when I was at the
Working Men's Club, and took up a glass of ale in mistake for ginger
beer.
Do you drink whisky? – Yes, I drink whisky. (Laughter)
I thought we should get at it. Perhaps a little rum shrub? – I never
tasted it.
May I suggest a little peppermint? – No, sir.
The beer you mean is a little Scotch? – No, sir, not Scotch.
Irish, perhaps? (Laughter)
Arthur Jordan, carpenter, Cheriton, said that he helped to get
signatures, 100 or more.
Are you also a teetotaller? – I am, up to a certain extent.
(Laughter) The existing house is not sufficient for the people who
require drink, and seems to be nearly always overcrowded.
Cross-examined by Mr. Mowll: How many members of the Parish Council
are there? Are there not 15? – I don't know exactly.
You have been going round getting this petition signed. What induced
you? – In the first place, Mr. Bartter is a friend of mine, and any
practical person will say that there are in Cheriton who require
stimulants, or think they do.
By Mr. Bannon: I should like to know what your weakness is – beer,
or whisky? – Neither.
You said you were not a strict teetotaller? – If stimulants were
recommended to me, I would not refuse to drink them.
This concluded the applicant's case. The Court was then addressed,
in opposition to the grant of a licence, by Mr. Mowll, who made a
strong point of the fact that only one third of the Parish Council
had signed the memorial.
Mr. A.H. Gardner: I appear of behalf of the Earl of Radnor, and I
have His Lordship's sanction to attend here and express the hope
that the Bench will refuse the application. His Lordship is owner of
the freehold of the White Lion, and we contend that there is ample
accommodation within the parish. My friends have enumerated many
houses within half a mile, and we contend that there is no need for
a further licence being granted. Overcrowding has been alluded to.
It has occurred mostly on holidays, but it is under His Lordship's
consideration to have an extension of this building, by arrangement
with the lessees, and I can unhesitatingly state that, if it is
found requisite, the premises will be altered and expanded.
Mr. Mowll: There is no difficulty whatever in making the White Lion
suitable for any trade in that locality.
Rev. R.E. Johnston: It will be scarcely necessary for me to add any
remarks to those that have fallen from the lawyers concerned in the
case. My presence here today – I hope I shall not be disrespectful
if I venture to say – is extremely distasteful to myself, and is
produced by one consideration. It is this, that as Vicar of All
Souls, Cheriton Street, I know by daily and most painful continual
experience that one of our greatest evils, the monstrous thing that
is dragging down so many of our people, is overindulgence in strong
drink, and I know that an increase of the facilities of obtaining
strong drink brought into the midst of a parish where they cannot
produce any additional convenience to any person whatsoever who
requires a legitimate further convenience, but where they can only
be used as an engine to increase the general consumption of
intoxicating liquors, is such an evil that one cannot fail to oppose
the proposal, and therefore I am here. I hold in my hand a memorial
that has been signed in the exactly opposite sense by some 68
ratepayers and adult inhabitants, and other memorials have been
circulated in the parish. I put this in for what it may be worth.
Memorials, as it appears to me, are valuable if they are absolutely
unanimous on one side or the other, but if they are pretty fairly
balanced on one side and another the sole purpose accomplished is
that they display to the Bench the fact that there is a division of
opinion in the parish. There is a strong division of opinion,
undoubtedly, and the case has to ne looked upon on its merits. Do we
need another licensed house in my parish of All Souls, Cheriton
Street? I cannot help expressing my strong conviction that no such
need has been established or can be established, because no such
need exists. It has been stated that a certain amount of crowding
takes place in connection with the White Lion. I speak in the
presence of the tenant of the White Lion and others connected with
it that know I hold no brief for them, but although it is true that
there have been crowds, and disorderly ones, there, I further say
that they have occurred, for I have seen them myself, on such
occasions as Bank Holidays and occasions of great military reviews.
Last Whit Monday, it is perfectly true, I did witness a disgraceful
scene. I absolve Mr. Baldock entirely from responsibility, for if
there had been half a dozen White Lions on that day there would have
been people who wanted to drink. The overcrowding is a totally
exceptional case, and could undoubtedly be met, if one ay venture to
make the suggestion, by having a considerably larger force of police
on the spot than we ever do get at Cheriton on such occasions. So
far as Mr. Bartter is concerned, I expect and hope he will be
disappointed over this application. I most heartily wish I could
spare him that disappointment. He is a friend of mine; as
Churchwarden he has co-operated with me in many works, and I hold
him in very high esteem, and had I found it possible, without
dereliction of duty in a question like this that affects my parish,
I should not, I tell you frankly, be here today. But I am here to
oppose him, because I find myself in this position, that if my own
brother came and proposed to set up a new fully licensed house in
this parish – a parish where the evils of drink are accentuated and
displayed in every direction; if it were proposed that in the midst
of such a parish as that there should be put down another large,
active, and vigorous concern for the sale of intoxicating liquors to
the people – then, even if it were my own brother, and not a
churchwarden only, I myself would do what I could to prevent such a
calamity coming upon the parish. (Applause in Court)
Supt. Waghorn, addressing the Bench, said that if greater facilities
were given there would be a proportionate increase in the number of
cases to be dealt with by the police, and he felt it his duty to
oppose the application.
The application was refused.
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Folkestone Express 3 October 1896.
Hythe Brewster Sessions.
The annual Brewster sessions were held at the Sessions Hall on
Thursday morning, before J.C. DuBoulay, Captain Baldwin, Commander
Mansell R.N., E.S. Thompson, F. Porter, and A.S. Jones Esqs.
Mr. John Bartter, grocer and butcher, of Cheriton, applied for a
full licence in respect of premises known as Albion House, Cheriton
Street. Applicant was represented by Mr. Goulden, of Rochester, and
already holds an off licence.
The application was opposed by Mr. Martin Mowll, of Dover, on behalf
of the brewers who lease the White Lion, by Mr. A.H. Gardner, of
Folkestone, on behalf of the Earl Of Radnor, the owner of the
freehold of the White Lion, by Mr. Bradley, of Dover, on behalf of
the local Temperance Society and several residents, by Mr. Bannon,
on behalf of Mr. Baldock, the tenant of the White Lion, and also the
Folkestone and District Licensed Victallers' Society, by the Rev.
R.E. Johnson, as Vicar of the Parish, and by Superintendent Waghorn,
on behalf of the police.
Mr. Golden, in his opening remarks, alluded to the great increase in
the number of houses and population since 1872, and said the White
Lion was the only fully licensed house in the locality of Cheriton
Street. He submitted plans showing the alterations proposed to be
made in the event of the licence being granted, and presented a
memorial signed by some 280 persons, in favour of the licence being
granted.
Applicant said he considered the White Lion was not sufficient to
supply the needs of the district. In answer to Mr. Bannon, he said
that he did a reasonable trade in connection with the off licence,
but it was not everyone who could afford to buy bottled beer. In
reply to Mr. Bradley, applicant stated that he was a universal
provider, and could supply anything from an elephant down to a pin –
anything reasonable. He made this application on account of the
needs of the people of Cheriton.
Mr. E.S. Wilks, architect, proved the plans submitted by applicant's
solicitor, and gave evidence as to the suitability of the premises
known as Albion House.
Evidence in support of the application was given by Mr. R. Pilcher,
builder, Mr. F. Rolfe, builder, William Driscoe, and Arthur Jordan,
the two last named being teetotallers. All considered that a fully
licensed house was needed for Cheriton, and endorsed every remark
made previously as to the suitability of applicant's premises.
Mr. Mowll strongly opposed the granting of the licence, on the
ground that the applicant had failed to show the necessity for
another fully licensed house, and Mr. A.H. Gardner, on behalf of the
Earl of Radnor, contended that the present accommodation in Cheriton
was sufficient. He further added that it was under the consideration
of his Lordship to have an extension of the White Lion by
arrangement with the lessees, and he unhesitatingly stated that if
it was found to be required the premises would be altered and
expanded.
Mr. Bradley contended that the present premises were sufficient for
present needs, and Mr. Bannon argued against the granting of the
licence from a Local Veto point of view, pointing out that the
establishment of another vested interested in the parish would
increase the compensation to be paid by the ratepayers when the
legislature took the matter in hand.
The Rev. R.E. Johnson, as Vicar of All Souls Parish, protested
against the increase of the facilities for obtaining strong drink in
a parish where they could not produce any additional convenience to
anyone, but where they could only be used as an engine to increase
the general consumption of intoxicating liquors. He submitted a
memorial in opposition to the granting of the licence, and said that
as there undoubtedly was a strong division of opinion in the parish
the case must be dealt with upon its merits. He contended strongly
that there was no necessity for another licensed house in the
parish, neither could any need be established, because no such need
existed. With regard to the overcrowding which has been alluded to,
he totally absolved Mr. Baldock, for he was quite powerless to cope
with it, and the difficulty could only be met by the presence of a
large force of police. With regard to Mr. Bartter, he was a friend
of his, he held him in high esteem, and as Churchwarden had
co-operated with him in many works, and had it been possible without
dereliction of duty in a question like that, which affected his
parish, he would not have been there to oppose him. But he was there
because he felt that if his own brother came and proposed to set up
a new fully licensed house in his parish – a parish where the evils
of drink were accentuated, and displayed in every direction; if it
were proposed that in the midst of such a parish as that, there
should be put down another large, active and vigorous concern for
the sale of intoxicating liquors to the people – then even if it
were his own brother, and not a Churchwarden only, he himself would
do what he could to prevent such a calamity coming upon the parish.
Superintendent Waghorn said if greater facilities were given there
would be a proportionate increase in the number of evils to be dealt
with by the police, and he felt it his duty to oppose the
application.
The Bench refused the application.
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